tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8455284570156061492.post8223854729381977428..comments2024-03-13T19:15:16.820+01:00Comments on KABLOONAS: VICTORY POINT CAIRN: THE SILENT WITNESSAndrés Paredeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17283802897907742244noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8455284570156061492.post-52741660599822171372022-01-16T22:10:10.093+01:002022-01-16T22:10:10.093+01:00Hi Andrés, it is my pleasure to read your posts an...Hi Andrés, it is my pleasure to read your posts and kind replies! :-)<br /><br />Concerning Clintock: you are absolutely right that he mentioned 138 men (135 was my mistake): "Another discrepancy exists in the second part of the record written by Fitzjames. The original number composing the expedition was 138 souls..." and only after return to England corrects himself: "I am now enabled to state ... that only one hundred and thirty-four individuals left the United Kingdom, and of these five men subsequently returned..." and gives names of those five returned men, as you mentioned.<br /><br />But I just wanted to "complain" that any interpretation of the Victory Point paper is extremely difficult as we cannot know what is just a "normal" mistake (as my mistake in the previous comment), what is an error caused by some deteriorating health condition of the authors and what is correct and logical but we are missing some piece of information...<br /><br />Your explanation of "Fitzjames's cairn" seems to me to correspond very well to the text. Just to summarize if I understand correctly: Gore found Ross's cairn in 1847. Fitzjames judged that the cairn found by Gore was built by Ross, but that this is not the pillar (tall cairn?), just some "usual" cairn built during Ross's journey.<br /><br />And as Fitzjames did not find Ross's pillar at the "right" place, he just build his own "pillar" (cairn) – not because he wanted to "rebuild" (there was nothing to rebuild, in fact) Ross's one, but because he needed to his own message in it.<br /><br />Unfortunately this theory (nor any other, I am afraid) does not explain why Fitzjames wasted so much paper for this story...Radouchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04552952721740963819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8455284570156061492.post-70877998822461600772022-01-12T12:24:49.425+01:002022-01-12T12:24:49.425+01:00Si, los he visto todos, me encantan. Me parece una...Si, los he visto todos, me encantan. Me parece una gran idea y me imagino que te debes de divertir muchísimo haciendo las composiciones y las fotos.Andrés Paredeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17283802897907742244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8455284570156061492.post-85028397283419908822022-01-12T08:50:42.418+01:002022-01-12T08:50:42.418+01:00Hi Radek, it is a pleasure to read you here!
Rega...Hi Radek, it is a pleasure to read you here!<br /><br />Regarding the number of men lost, in the Conclusions of the narrative of the voyage of the Fox, McCLintock stablish that the number of lost men was indeed 129. He mentions the amount of 138 and then give the names of the five ones who didn´t finally go.<br /><br />Regarding the Victory point cairn, to me at least, this is still an open question. I think I will never have a clear idea if Fitzjames built a new cairn where he thought Ross´s pillar (or cairn) was supposed to have been built (why it wasn´t there is strange, a cairn can last 15 years perfectly well, specially in that part which wasn´t frequently visited). Same happens with Gore´s cairn, I think that Gore had correctly placed the note in the actual Ross´s cairn and that it is Fitzjames who was wrong for some unknown reason. Gore put his note on may 1847, maybe conditions then were more favourable than in april of the following year and simply Fitzjames couldn´t find Ross´s (and Gore) cairn under the snow and decided to build his own, then ... we would have twins :)!! Andrés Paredeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17283802897907742244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8455284570156061492.post-89715796840797834112022-01-09T21:15:47.622+01:002022-01-09T21:15:47.622+01:00Andrés si te gustaron mis posts de Scott y de Fran...Andrés si te gustaron mis posts de Scott y de Franklin te dejo los de Shackleton:<br /><br />http://playmoguardian.blogspot.com/2021/02/shackleton-el-desafio-de-la-antartida.html?m=1<br /><br />Puedes seguir los demás en la etiqueta Antártida.<br />SaludosGuardiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8455284570156061492.post-22239599566889904272022-01-09T10:57:56.083+01:002022-01-09T10:57:56.083+01:00Andrés, thanks for this great post!
It seems to m...Andrés, thanks for this great post!<br /><br />It seems to me there are two question: 1) How many cairns (or pillars or whatever) were in fact built and by whom, 2) What Fitzjames and Crozier thought about cairns they found or looked for.<br /><br />Concerning the latter: I now read again answers to my 5 years old question in RFE Facebook group about meaning of the word "pillar". Regina Koellner offers this interpretation of Victory Point message (my comments in square brackets -[]):<br /><br />"Lt. Irving found the note four miles to the North in a cairn which was supposed [by Gore?] to be built by James Ross but probably wasn't (because it was Gore's cairn? [it cannot be the case if Gore thought it was Ross's cairn; but it could be built by Ross's men as Andrés suggests]). So the message was taken away from that spot and moved to a new cairn that was now built in the spot where James Ross's cairn/pillar should have been."<br /><br />Anyway, I think it is extremely difficult to guess what Fitzjames and Crozier really knew / thought at the moment of writing their message. As many people pointed out, the found message could be just one of many (although I have some doubts about it).<br /><br />E.g. McClintock in his book about "finding Franklin" gives wrong number - 135 - of Franklin's men lost in Arctic (apparently does not count men returned from Disco and Orkneys). And he certainly had better conditions to search information, think and write than officers at King Williams Island...Radouchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04552952721740963819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8455284570156061492.post-51722132819436314612022-01-05T21:56:30.902+01:002022-01-05T21:56:30.902+01:00Thanks Randall!
I think I am mixing cairns. From ...Thanks Randall!<br /><br />I think I am mixing cairns. From what you say, and from what Franklin´s note says, we should assume that the one on which the note was found is a different cairn from the one in Victory point. I have been always confused about this. <br /><br />McClintock said in the narrative that the one on which the note was found was the one of Victory point. See the paragraph copied below from pg 303. I read there that Hobson demolished and rebuilt the point Victory cairn. I was wrong saying that it was Mc Clintock who did that, I will correct that now, many thanks for this, Randall.<br /><br />"When the record left at Point Yictory was opened to add thereto the supplemental information which gives it its chief value, Captain Fitzjames, as may be con- cluded by the colour of the ink, filled in the date — 28th — in May, when the record was originally deposited. The cylinder containing this record had not been soldered up again ; I suppose they had not the means of doing so ; it was found on the ground amongst a few loose stones which had evidently fallen along with it from the top of the cairn. Hobson removed every stone of this cairn down to the ground and rebuilt it."<br /><br />However I still have not a clear idea if there are three or two cairns involved in this story. We should assume that Gore left the note in first place in Ross´s cairn, where it was taken by Irving. After the landing, as Franklin´s note says, Ross´s pillar wasn´t found and the paper was transfered to the pillar erected in the position where it should have been, which is Crozier´s landing cairn I guess...a different one from the Ross-VIctory cairn.<br /><br />Then when McClintock talks about VIctory pount cairn he was actually talking about Crozier´s landing cairn, but what I don´t undestand is why Fitzjames says the paper was transfered to the "this position which is that in which Sir J. Ross' pillar was erected"?. WHat did he mean with that? From this I had always thought that Crozier´s and Ross´s cairns were the same, and that the one on which Gore left the note was another one north of Ross-Crozier´s. But I am surely wrong.<br /><br />I have found later this Russell´s post about Louie Kamookak. On it, it appears Louie in Victory Point cairn commemorating the 150 th annyversary of Crozier´s landing . There is a plaque on the top (https://visionsnorth.blogspot.com/2018/03/louie-kamookak-1959-2018.html):<br />Andrés Paredeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17283802897907742244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8455284570156061492.post-39062686493666337782022-01-05T17:10:11.463+01:002022-01-05T17:10:11.463+01:00Hobson found Crozier's cairn near the beach wh...Hobson found Crozier's cairn near the beach where the crews had come ashore after abandoning the ships. He left it standing after finding the canister with the paper that had been left by Gore at Ross's Victory Point. When McClintock reached the cairn days later, he took it down to the ground hoping to find other messages in it, but there were none. He did not say that he rebuilt it. It is still just a patch of stones strewn over the ground. He carried on to Cape Felix where he specifically noted that he rebuilt a different cairn that had been dismantled by Lt. Hobson. The large cairn that still stands at Crozier's Landing was built two decades later by members of the Schwatka Expedition. When the Schwatka Expedition reached the site of the Franklin Camp a few miles south of Ross's Victory Point, there were no standing cairns. They left one, a signpost, atop a gravel ridge above the beach to indicate the location of Irving's grave. Years later, Burwash, who thought the Schwatka cairn was Crozier's, took it down and rebuilt it, as did Larsen several years later. No messages were found in or under it and no grave, just a bit of wool cloth. The cairn at Ross's Victory Point, "~four miles north" of where the crews came ashore (Crozier's Landing), is still visible, though it too has been largely demolished. That is my understanding of the chronology. Randall Osczevskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09858473343619938440noreply@blogger.com